Most of the posts that so gravely offended the Musk fanboys appear to have been deleted. Maybe one or two cut and pasted here in earlier entries. Oh Well.
“-carrying enough shielding is impractical-“
The “problem” is that this statement is bassackwards; NOT carrying enough shielding is impractical. It is the elephant in the room, the wall that Human Space Flight advocates keep trying to get around- but there is no getting around it. If humans are to live and thrive in space then they must have a near sea level radiation one gravity environment. What is being promoted right now is the equivalent of going into the North Sea in the winter in a dugout canoe and calling that transatlantic trade. That is what NewSpace is doing- pushing dogma that is a farce and guarantees failure.”
“Whose “current view”? I suggest you look at that article I cited and it will be made clear to you that you have to stop the heavy nuclei component of galactic cosmic radiation completely because it hits light shielding and generates secondary radiation. Which is why you would NOT go into a “storm shelter” in conventional spacecraft because the radiation level is far higher than in the rest of the craft. Except during a solar storm…then you want to stop that flood of lighter radiation particles from profoundly dosing you. Do you understand how that works?”
“People get off planes after a few hours and the body has some ability to repair the damage but cosmic radiation is different. It is a problem according to the scientist who is the acknowledged expert on space radiation. They named that solar probe after him; Eugene Parker. You say it is not a problem, but science says otherwise. You might want to reread that classic laymen’s guide, “Shielding Space Travelers” in Scientific American.
And if you have “no idea” what we will be doing on the Moon, you skipped over most of what I wrote and maybe this is not the right forum for you to express your views.”
“Nobody is going to be working on the surface of the Moon. That is a given. All those pretty graphics of Moonwalkers in spacesuits are pure fantasy. Not much manual labor can be done in a spacesuit anyway and as I explained, the accrued dose will determine how long a person works in space. Being on the Moon is going to be about being below the surface. Only emergencies will provoke EVA’s in suits. The acceptable lifetime dose is not going to be anywhere near as high as it is presently because the cancer risk, especially for young females, is completely unacceptable. That is the reality.”
“The link is how you do Cyclers.
The idea is to intercept a Cycler and exchange passengers, getting the passengers on the Cycler behind shielding and on their way to the Earth or Moon and the passengers getting off for Earth or the Moon down to the surface as quickly as possible to minimize dosing.
This is because a career in space will be determined by a lifetime dose and how much permanent debilitation is incurred. While zero G is not a concern for a cislunar transit it would be for the crew of the Cycler who likely do a lengthy tour of duty. A cislunar transit would add to an astronaut’s lifetime dose and any solar event, even in a “storm shelter” would cut short that career. That is how this works.
The rest of your reply was mostly a Starship advert and in my opinion Starship is going to be successful as an unmanned second stage and not as intended.”
“I envision development of the Moon as a series of steps toward it becoming essentially a giant factory for building first space solar power components and then large metal constructs like Nuclear Pulse Propulsion discs and sections of miles-in-diameter space colony habitat. The NPP discs being used for spaceships and to lift those sections off the lunar surface. But long before that a way to get people, not so much equipment, to and from the Moon will be needed. A fleet of shielded Lunar Cyclers would travel around the Earth/Moon and provide safe passage without any dosing, either from solar events or cosmic radiation. These Cyclers will just go round and round and they have to be intercepted by spacecraft launched from the Earth and from the Moon to embark and disembark passengers. If Starship is going to lift cargo into LEO then it might be able to launch “tugs” carrying passenger capsules to intercept Cyclers. I would guess this tug would burn three times, first to escape Earth orbit, second to match the Cycler, and third to reenter, the capsule, carrying passengers from the Moon back to Earth, would then separate from the tug and they would reenter separately for reuse. This would be different than a cargo tug which would burn direct to the Moon and the engine would separate for free return, reentry, and reuse. In my opinion this is the best way to support Moon development, by NOT refueling Starship in orbit but by using it simply as a second stage.”
“It is not that I hate Musk personally, he is a human being just like everyone else and I have to forgive due to my religious beliefs. It is his rabid gang of libertarian followers I cannot stand. As a New Deal Progressive I despise this NewSpace cult as profoundly anti-American. That said, I can see Musk radically changing his agenda and modifying his project and making it work, but it is unlikely.
1. The 30 odd engines is a non-starter. SpaceX needs a “Super-Raptor” in the 2 million pound thrust range.
2. Starship would work as a second stage with a third stage on top of it; which means it is just too tall and so that 1st stage needs to be separated into two side boosters. This results in a Saturn V class vehicle that lands back in three pieces. No chopsticks.
3. Forget Starlink and Mars and go to the Moon to build Space Solar Power satellites. Get the DOD to fund it.
There you go.”
“The ability to hover over a spot on the Earth, from over 22,000 miles up, has always fascinated me. This would seem to me to be the place for large space stations, able to accomplish many missions, and also as extensions of the nation each is poised above or at least an embassy of a sort when over other areas, or over the ocean. How to accomplish this space station in GEO is a difficult question to answer. One of the first criticisms of such crewed platforms is they are not stable enough, that the movements of the crew generate vibration and oscillations that affect positioning and observations. This is where the descriptor “large” comes into play and also relates to the true obstacle to humans in GEO, which is radiation.
By use of Super Heavy Lift Vehicles double-hulled “wet workshops” can be sent to the Moon to be captured and inserted into lunar orbit. The empty sphere-inside-a-sphere stage would then have it’s outer envelope gradually filled with water brought up from the Moon and derived from lunar ice deposits. When filled, this envelope would act primarily as a massive cosmic ray shield and would also serve several other functions. The required thickness of the envelope dictates the spherical shape and the name of this concept; the “Fat Workshop.” By connecting crew compartments together with an approximately one mile long tether system, with roughly equal masses at either end, the result is a tether generated artificial gravity system. The resulting near sea level radiation one gravity environment enables long duration human missions on space stations, Lunar Cyclers, and interplanetary spaceships. These water shielded crew compartments could then be transited back across the cislunar sea to GEO for use in space stations.
This “Bola” configuration would allow a human crewed GEO space station and an equipment mast attached to the center of the tether system would enable the stable positioning of desired sensors. Such stations, with their shielded electronics, would be invulnerable to even a Carrington level solar event, with externals being repaired as needed through conveyors on the mast and cable-cars in the tether system.
The advantages of such a ring of space stations are obvious. Laser brooms operated from these stations could sweep lower orbits free of space junk and a constant flow of repair parts and upgraded components would maintain this ring of telecom platforms around Earth.”
“The Transport Layer is a “proliferated” constellation, meaning it has a large enough number of satellites that it would be extremely costly for an adversary to try to take it down.”
It is not “extremely costly” to take down satellites. In fact, it would not take many launches to flood all of Earth orbit with clouds of tungsten pellets and create a Kessler Syndrome, an apocalypse for all overhead assets. If you are losing a war and have done some preparation to fight battles and take advantage after the sudden loss of all satellites, it is the smart move.
This is classic Military Industrial Complex profiteering (contracts worth nearly $1.8 billion); weaponizing space and escalating the risk of MAD for a couple bucks.”
“The AJ-260 was indeed a marvel and much larger ones, truly immense SRB’s were seriously considered, like the 15 million+ pound thrust notional 325 inch solid AKA: Nova GD-S. Status: Study 1963. Thrust: 69,047.00 kN (15,522,383 lbf). Specific impulse: 263 s. Specific impulse sea level: 238 s. Burn time: 116 s. Height: 60.40 m (198.10 ft). Diameter: 8.30 m (27.20 ft). Unfortunately the toxic byproducts of SRB’s make them problematic. I would like to see a ocean-recovered pressure-fed ammonia booster studied. The M-3 was really the lost opportunity; A 3 million pound thrust hydrogen oxygen engine.” I look at Starship and I think, they could make that just a second stage with a big hydrogen oxygen engine and a couple small ones for steering and landing, and replace the “super heavy” with a couple side-mounted pressure-fed boosters. It would have been a great Space Shuttle with the two boosters recovered at sea and the Starship going around the world from parking orbit to land back at the launch site. And a third stage going to the Moon. Instead we were trapped in LEO for half a century.
“It is pretty clear that Rocket Jesus is a religion for many who comment here. I doubt you have the vast engineering or pediatric expertise to get away with advising me on space colonies. The “we don’t know” hammer that is so popular to beat other people over the head with is not convincing. “Even if it is not colonized” sounds like you are on one side and “planetary chauvinists” sounds like you are on the other. That means you are on the fence, or more likely a high horse, and you are telling me…what? Whatever you are trying to get at, I made a comment, and your reply was essentially meaningless. But thanks anyway. And Mars is pretty deep gravity well to be shooting stuff into space from. I am thinking you meant the Moon, which is an O’Neill concept.”
“-those who loathe his guts, and those who think he can do no wrong. You’ll find a handful of the former here, but virtually none of the latter.”
“Congrats on the engineer paper on wall. Cred bragging on a forum like this is a high horse and indeed, you are looking down on me from a great height. You might be good with numbers but you have a problem with cognitive dissonance if you think “virtually” nobody is worshipping Musk here. Probably because you also secretly worship his shadow and are trying to hide it. You see, I have played this game with NewSpace fanatics for going on a decade now.
“The point here is not to impugn O’Neill or his ideas, but to echo his clear belief that dogmatic thinking does no good in engineering or in science.”
I think your “point” actually is to “impugn”, to poison the well and trivialize any criticism of NewSpace as somehow unfair and counterproductive. I am not interested, not in Mars, and not in you wasting any more of my time. Have a good day.”
“I say no one here worships Musk because I recognize what real worship entails. Calling people who think differently ‘NewSpace fanatics’ is a good way to justify your hatred of them, but as you have said you’re a Christian, it goes completely against what Christ said we should do.”
Like I said brother, you have some cognitive dissonance issues. My presbyterian God informs me on what is going on with the majority of the people commenting here. They worship money as the god of this world, and the only sacred and holy things to them are profit and greed. Their Tony Stark/John Galt/Howard Roark demigod has a cult following now, much like Trump. Watching his last rally, I could not but notice the deference paid to him by his sycophants in the audience asking questions. Like Berger from Ars Technica, for example, whose website runs a blatant spacex infomercial. It reminded me of Trump’s cabinet fawning on him. It is the cult of personality and neoliberal ideology is the fundamental base of it all. The science is “clear”; climate change is going to wreck civilization unless a way to provide a western standard of living for a population of 10 billion near the end of this century is found. O’Neill and his students provided the solution. Musk is the anti-solution. Rocket Jesus is actually Rocket anti-christ.
Have a good evening.